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  • (01. January 2010., 10:27:49)












Author Topic: I hate hard drives  (Read 7028 times)

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devnullius

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I hate hard drives
« on: 05. March 2013., 10:08:20 »
 >:(

Something I hate is hard drives (non-SSD) & their warranties...

It's fuzzy logic! When you enter into this area, you will walk into a secret forrest with people that lost all sense of logic.

Example: my hard drive store http://harddata.nl is specialized in hard drives. Not many shops out there that do! I really need their experiences when it comes to buying a new drive and I am willing to take a long (!) drive for their shop... BUT this is what sometimes happens... A drive will check 100% OK (SMART, badblocks) and still lose integrity on file system level (NTFS). The volume bitmap for example will have incorrect size almost after every reboot. Other drives will not have this problem with this computer, even replacing with same brand & model & type drive will often not have problems on the "offending" computer. Still, the "experts" will tell you the drive is just great and my computer is at fault. Very hard to win on arguments & logic if this is all you get to hear. True, they will replace the drive as a "gesture" for which I should be "grateful". And they will insist the drive is working 100% to this day with them, even after they started using it 2 years ago.

YET...

Today I had a friend where this problem occured. This drive  wasnot sold at that store, but an original drive belonging to the Dell PC and in general a perfect example of what happened to me many times.
For the drive, I  tested everything, and everything was 100% Still, Acronis Drive Moniitor clearly shows the boot-time chkeck disk warnings:

Cleaning up 1 unused index entries from index $SII of file 0x9. Cleaning up 1 unused index entries from index $SDH of file 0x9. Cleaning up 1 unused security descriptors. CHKDSK is verifying Usn Journal... Usn Journal verification completed. 78116030 KB total disk space. 24627652 KB in 88662 files. 31592 KB in 13793 indexes. 0 KB in bad sectors. 301398 KB in use by the system. 65536 KB occupied by the log file. 53155388 KB available on disk. 4096 bytes in each allocation unit. 19529007 total allocation units on disk. 13288847 allocation units available on disk.

I have seen this MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY TIMES :( New drives, old drives, it doesn't matter.

I always was sure I WAS RIGHT, but "the experts" insisted I was wrong.

Today I did the Pepsi test ;p (Pepsi lost :>)

I have two Dell machines (Optiplex 745). My friend has a Dell Optiplex 745 too! And after doing everything to save her Windows XP installation, I decided just to swap hardware al together! So I took her harddrive and I put it in my machine - which always WORKED FLAWLESSLY!
So this way I could prove that
1. RAM was not a problem,
2. cables were not a problem, and
3. mobo or power is not a problem - despite "expert" opinions.

If I couldn't get the filesystem stable in this new PC only LOGICAL conclusion is that "something" goes wrong with THE DISK ITSELF! NO OTHER EXPLANATIONS*! (But still, the expert in the shop will explain to me why their drive is not at fault - he will even get emotional to the point I'm not allowed to ask any in-depth questions anymore, forever...!). Man, funk that sheit! For the conclusion is clear, my friend's drive still gives log files like the one copied above... I will buy her a new drive and I'll bet that everything will work flawlessly in her "broken" computer ;p

I should post some more old links of mine to give a complete overview of this problem - including the fact that so many information is kept secret, especially when it comes to recovery and analysis software. Those people will really get upset, even online, when you ask in-depth questions... General consensus: whom the frack do I think I am to ask questions like that and even worse, thinking I know better...

Well, I'll answer who I am... A patient person who will test all possibilities before complaining to a store... And a person willing to go the extra mile to prove the expert's opinion is wrong (even if they are right, I'll always learn something new ; ).

So till the <EDIT> for links, after KVM Switch article is finished. Will take some time - for I have none at the moment... ;p

NO Karma NOR Peace for the Hard Drive Experts!

Devvie


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Cuisvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore persevare
——
All spelling mistakes are my own and may only be distributed under the GNU General Public License! – (© 95-1 by Coredump; 2-013 by DevNullius)

* it could be a Windows XP / OS problem too... No doubt replacing the drive tonight will prove this theory wrong too ;p
More information about bitcoin, altcoin & crypto in general? GO TO  j.gs/7385484/btc

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I hate hard drives
« on: 05. March 2013., 10:08:20 »




Leeway

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #1 on: 05. March 2013., 11:03:29 »
This happens to me before, it is the mechanical fault. Disk platters are alright, there are times when the motor does not spin at the correct speed causes the problem. When serious, my PC just froze, not even a blue screen.

When I bought them down to support centre, they check it and claim no problem and refuse an exchange or to raise a repair order. A few months later, the HDD fail physically, no read/write sound. Luckily, I only lost some data with the help of frequent backups knowing this hard disk is going to die soon.

Still prefer HDD over SSD as it still offers the highest storage capacity per device and it is relatively cheap.

You may try this software "HD Sentinel", it will diagnose the problem the mechanical HDD is facing.

Pez

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #2 on: 05. March 2013., 11:08:18 »
You have not teeled us what type of drive you have. Manufactor and drive type. Many of the large manufactors have lowlevel test available for ther drive so you can test the drive in deept. That ofen also have firmware update for common problem on ther drives. Have you looked in this?

But to get the right tool and firmware you need serch for your drive typ number.

You have tool s like this example. WD Grren GP serie: http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=608&sid=3&lang=en

and Seagates: http://www.seagate.com/support/downloads/seatools/
Their is two easy way to configure a system!
Every thing open and every thing closed.
Every thing else is more or less complex.

Start Turfing ! http://scforum.info/index.php/topic,8405.msg21475.html#msg21475

devnullius

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #3 on: 05. March 2013., 14:16:34 »
You have not teeled us what type of drive you have. Manufactor and drive type. Many of the large manufactors have lowlevel test available for ther drive so you can test the drive in deept. That ofen also have firmware update for common problem on ther drives. Have you looked in this?

But to get the right tool and firmware you need serch for your drive typ number.

You have tool s like this example. WD Grren GP serie: http://support.wdc.com/product/download.asp?groupid=608&sid=3&lang=en

and Seagates: http://www.seagate.com/support/downloads/seatools/

I know these tools, but as far as memory serves me right, they all do badblock testing and low level formats... I will look into Leeway's remarks - I do like hard disk sentinel pro, but stopped using it for their warez version often has very nasty virii included :s

I'll install it on my friend's hdd and see if it finds anything special...

Karma...

devnullius
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devnullius

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #4 on: 05. March 2013., 14:21:34 »
...  platters are alright, there are times when the motor does not spin at the correct speed causes the problem. When serious, my PC just froze, not even a blue screen.

This is EXACTLY what I've seen throughout the years on different systems... I even had a system like that: total sudden freeze. Frozen in time, no beep, no warning, nothing. That old comp of mine, had these problems caused by faulty RAM... I guess, for I burned some circuits on that old AMD 750+ when not fitting RAM correctly... Big flame, bad smell and freezing system afterwards ;)

I do think it is an original answer (speed of disk), for it is the only thing I never thought about... Nor did the shop owners ever mentioned it ;p

VERY curious now if there is a (real-time) solution to monitor for these faults... Are you sure HD Sentinel can do this???

Karma...!

devnullius
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Pez

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #5 on: 05. March 2013., 15:42:49 »
Remeber also that ther is different kind of disks that have a purpose profile like the most Green disk have spindown and therfor is not applicable to use as RAID disks.

And

Ther can also be something related to the famus Seagate problem:
http://www.techpowerup.com/82331/Seagate-Offers-Firmware-Fix-for-All-Problematic-Barracuda-7200.11-Hard-Drives.html?cp=3
http://forums.seagate.com/stx/board/crawl_message?board.id=ata_drives&message.id=26556

I asked what brand the drive is and what type (number) so I could try to help you more.
Have you search on the web for your kind of disk an sutable problem description for your drive to se if other have the same problem?
Their is two easy way to configure a system!
Every thing open and every thing closed.
Every thing else is more or less complex.

Start Turfing ! http://scforum.info/index.php/topic,8405.msg21475.html#msg21475

Samker

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #6 on: 05. March 2013., 18:55:34 »
...

I asked what brand the drive is and what type (number) so I could try to help you more.

...

Same question & goodwill here...  :angel:

devnullius

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #7 on: 05. March 2013., 20:56:38 »
Ok, your links definitely trigger my curiosity, although I think it is a dead-end. I've seen it over the years so many times, so many systems, ... I think it must be something very generic.

Still, here is the info ;)

  -- Physical Disk Information - Disk: #0: WDC WD800JD-75MSA3 --

    Hard Disk Summary
   -------------------
    Hard Disk Number . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 0
    Interface  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : S-ATA II
    Disk Controller  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Intel(R) ICH8 4 port Serial ATA Storage Controller - 2820 (ATA)
    Disk Location  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 0, Device: 0
    Hard Disk Model ID . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : WDC WD800JD-75MSA3
    Firmware Revision  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 10.01E04
    Hard Disk Serial Number  . . . . . . . . . . . . : WD-WMAM9XV17506
    Total Size . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 76293 MB
    Power State  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Active
    Logical Drive(s) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : C: []
    Current Temperature  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 36 °C
    Power On Time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 291 days, 12 hours
    Estimated Remaining Lifetime . . . . . . . . . . : more than 1000 days
    Health . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : #################### 100 % (Excellent)
    Performance  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : #################### 100 % (Excellent)

    The hard disk status is PERFECT. Problematic or weak sectors were not found and there are no spin up or data transfer errors.
      No actions needed.

    ATA Information
   -----------------
    Hard Disk Cylinders  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 155010
    Hard Disk Heads  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 16
    Hard Disk Sectors  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 63
    ATA Revision . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ATA/ATAPI-7
    Total Sectors  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 156250000
    Bytes Per Sector . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 512
    Buffer Size  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 8192 KB
    Multiple Sectors . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 16
    Error Correction Bytes . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 65
    Unformatted Capacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 76294 MB
    Maximum PIO Mode . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 4
    Maximum Multiword DMA Mode . . . . . . . . . . . : 2
    Maximum UDMA Mode  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 300 MB/s (6)
    Active UDMA Mode . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 300 MB/s (5)
    Minimum Multiword DMA Transfer Time  . . . . . . : 120 ns
    Recommended Multiword DMA Transfer Time  . . . . : 120 ns
    Minimum PIO Transfer Time Without IORDY  . . . . : 120 ns
    Minimum PIO Transfer Time With IORDY . . . . . . : 120 ns
    ATA Control Byte . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Valid
    ATA Checksum Value . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Valid

    Acoustic Management Configuration
   -----------------------------------
    Acoustic Management  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Acoustic Management  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Disabled
    Current Acoustic Level . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Min performance and volume (80h)
    Recommended Acoustic Level . . . . . . . . . . . : Min performance and volume (80h)

    ATA Features
   --------------
    Read Ahead Buffer  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported, Enabled
    DMA  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Ultra DMA  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    S.M.A.R.T. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Power Management . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Write Cache  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Host Protected Area  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Advanced Power Management  . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Extended Power Management  . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Power Up In Standby  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    48-Bit LBA Addressing  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Device Configuration Overlay . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    IORDY Support  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Read/Write DMA Queue . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    NOP Command  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Trusted Computing  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    64-Bit World Wide ID . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Streaming  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Media Card Pass Through  . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    General Purpose Logging  . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Error Logging  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    CFA Feature Set  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    CFast Device . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Long Physical Sectors (1)  . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Long Logical Sectors . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Write-Read-Verify  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    NV Cache Feature . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    NV Cache Power Mode  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    NV Cache Size  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Free-fall Control  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Free-fall Control Sensitivity  . . . . . . . . . : Not supported

    SSD Features
   --------------
    Data Set Management  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    TRIM Command . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Deterministic Read After TRIM  . . . . . . . . . : Not supported

    S.M.A.R.T. Details
   --------------------
    Off-line Data Collection Status  . . . . . . . . : Suspended By Interrupting Command From Host
    Self Test Execution Status . . . . . . . . . . . : Successfully Completed
    Total Time To Complete Off-line Data Collection  : 2460 seconds
    Execute Off-line Immediate . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Abort/restart Off-line By Host . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Off-line Read Scanning . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Short Self-test  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Extended Self-test . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Conveyance Self-test . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Selective Self-Test  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Save Data Before/After Power Saving Mode . . . . : Supported
    Enable/Disable Attribute Autosave  . . . . . . . : Supported
    Error Logging Capability . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Short Self-test Estimated Time . . . . . . . . . : 2 minutes
    Extended Self-test Estimated Time  . . . . . . . : 33 minutes
    Conveyance Self-test Estimated Time  . . . . . . : 6 minutes
    Last Short Self-test Result  . . . . . . . . . . : Never Started
    Last Short Self-test Date  . . . . . . . . . . . : Never Started
    Last Extended Self-test Result . . . . . . . . . : Never Started
    Last Extended Self-test Date . . . . . . . . . . : Never Started
    Last Conveyance Self-test Result . . . . . . . . : Never Started
    Last Conveyance Self-test Date . . . . . . . . . : Never Started

    Security Mode
   ---------------
    Security Mode  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Security Erase . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Security Erase Time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Security Enhanced Erase Feature  . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Security Enhanced Erase Time . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Security Enabled . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : No
    Security Locked  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : No
    Security Frozen  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
    Security Counter Expired . . . . . . . . . . . . : No
    Security Level . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : High

    Serial ATA Features
   ---------------------
    S-ATA Compliance . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Yes
    S-ATA I Signaling Speed (1.5 Gps)  . . . . . . . : Supported
    S-ATA II Signaling Speed (3 Gps) . . . . . . . . : Supported
    S-ATA Gen3 Signaling Speed (6 Gps) . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Receipt Of Power Management Requests From Host . : Supported
    PHY Event Counters . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Non-Zero Buffer Offsets In DMA Setup FIS . . . . : Not supported
    DMA Setup Auto-Activate Optimization . . . . . . : Supported, Disabled
    Device Initiating Interface Power Management . . : Supported, Disabled
    In-Order Data Delivery . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Asynchronous Notification  . . . . . . . . . . . : Not supported
    Software Settings Preservation . . . . . . . . . : Supported, Enabled
    Native Command Queuing (NCQ) . . . . . . . . . . : Supported
    Queue Length . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 32

    Disk Information
   ------------------
    Disk Family  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Caviar SE
    Form Factor  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 3.5"
    Capacity . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 80 GB (80 x 1.000.000.000 bytes)
    Number Of Disks  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ?
    Number Of Heads  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ?
    Rotational Speed . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 7200 RPM
    Rotation Time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 8,33 ms
    Average Rotational Latency . . . . . . . . . . . : 4,17 ms
    Disk Interface . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ?
    Buffer-Host Max. Rate  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ? MB/seconds
    Buffer Size  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 8192 KB
    Drive Ready Time (Typical) . . . . . . . . . . . : 9 seconds
    Average Seek Time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 8,9 ms
    Track To Track Seek Time . . . . . . . . . . . . : 2,0 ms
    Full Stroke Seek Time  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 21,0 ms
    Width  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 101,6 mm (4,0 inch)
    Depth  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 147,0 mm (5,8 inch)
    Height . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 25,4 mm (1,0 inch)
    Weight . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ? grams (0,0 pounds)
    Required Power For Spinup  . . . . . . . . . . . : ? mA
    Power Required (Seek)  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ? W
    Power Required (Idle)  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : ? W
    Power Required (Standby) . . . . . . . . . . . . : ? W
    Manufacturer . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : Western Digital Corporation
    Manufacturer Website . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products

    S.M.A.R.T.
   ------------
No.  Attribute                Thre.. Value  Worst  Data                Status                   Flags                                                 
1    Raw Read Error Rate      51     200    200    000000000000        OK                       Error-Rate, Performance, Statistical, Critical         
3    Spin Up Time             21     165    163    000000000ABE        OK                       Statistical, Critical                                 
4    Start/Stop Count         0      99     99     000000000689        OK (Always passing)      Self Preserving, Event Count, Statistical             
5    Reallocated Sectors Co.. 140    200    200    000000000000        OK                       Self Preserving, Event Count, Statistical, Critical   
7    Seek Error Rate          51     200    200    000000000000        OK                       Error-Rate, Performance, Statistical, Critical         
9    Power On Time Count      0      91     91     000000001B54        OK (Always passing)      Self Preserving, Event Count, Statistical             
10   Spin Retry Count         51     100    100    000000000000        OK                       Event Count, Statistical, Critical                     
11   Drive Calibration Retr.. 51     100    100    000000000000        OK                       Event Count, Statistical                               
12   Drive Power Cycle Count  0      99     99     000000000689        OK (Always passing)      Self Preserving, Event Count, Statistical             
190  Airflow Temperature      45     64     47     000000000024        OK                       Self Preserving, Statistical                           
194  Disk Temperature         0      107    90     000000000024        OK (Always passing)      Self Preserving, Statistical                           
196  Reallocation Event Count 0      200    200    000000000000        OK (Always passing)      Self Preserving, Event Count, Statistical             
197  Current Pending Sector.. 0      200    200    000000000000        OK (Always passing)      Event Count, Statistical                               
198  Off-Line Uncorrectable.. 0      200    200    000000000000        OK (Always passing)      Event Count                                           
199  Ultra ATA CRC Error Co.. 0      200    200    000000000000        OK (Always passing)      Self Preserving, Event Count, Error-Rate, Performanc..
200  Write Error Rate         51     200    200    000000000000        OK                       Error-Rate, Critical                                   

    Transfer Rate Information
   ---------------------------
    Total Data Read  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 319 MB,  73.925 MB since installation  (5-3-2013)
    Total Data Write . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 158 MB,  103.627 MB since installation
    Average Reads Per Day  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 73.925,00 MB
    Average Writes Per Day . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 103.627,00 MB
    Current Transfer Rate  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 2315 KB/s
    Maximum Transfer Rate  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 20766 KB/s
    Current Read Rate  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 1926 KB/s
    Current Write Rate . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 389 KB/s
    Current Disk Activity  . . . . . . . . . . . . . : 32 %

Karma...

devnullius 
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Samker

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Re: I hate hard drives
« Reply #8 on: 05. March 2013., 22:47:16 »
Quote
...

Still, here is the info ;)

  -- Physical Disk Information - Disk: #0: WDC WD800JD-75MSA3 --

...


hmmm... maybe you'll get some idea from these old Topics:

http://scforum.info/index.php/topic,3399.0.html

http://scforum.info/index.php/topic,5722.0.html


devnullius

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old-school free windows stress test - the manual cmd.exe way ; )
« Reply #9 on: 05. March 2013., 23:08:01 »
Searching for a free Windows stress test tool that would remove and copy many small (and bigger files) to see if errors can be triggered, I found not much.

This I found, HeavyLoad (http://www.jam-software.com/heavyload/). It sounds fancy, but all it does (for HDDs) is growing a big file - an option configures how much free space should be reserved. Run it.

I than added 5x cmd.exe command prompts.

I did (in each one):
cd\
mkdir temp
cd temp
xcopy c:\windows\*.* /s /v /c /i /h /r  /Y .

This last command I'll repeat for 30 times, simply while the command already is executing, by buffering it all to memory like follows:
press key up (this repeats last command) and press enter
press key up (this .. command) and press enter
repeat this many times in all 5 command prompts.

THEN I open another cmd prompt. Here, another command should be repeated many many times (from C:\temp):
del *.* /f /s /q

To up the stress, one (I;) could start a complete antivirus scan on the C:-drive. Start defragmenting to top it off. Let it run overnight (or as long as you dare) and abort all (command prompts can simply be closed by pressing the x-cross).

In command prompt, type last command:
chkdsk c: /f /v /x /r
--> gives FULL disk check, or use:
chkdsk c: /f /v /x
--> for faster checkdisk.

Restart the computer, and watch carefully for the last seconds of the disk check (or look in the event logs, or even better: keep Acronis Drive Monitor installed) and see if sheit has hit the fan again :s

Karma...

devnullius
More information about bitcoin, altcoin & crypto in general? GO TO  j.gs/7385484/btc

Cuisvis hominis est errare, nullius nisi insipientis in errore persevare... So why not get the real SCForum employees to help YOUR troubled computer!!! SCF Remote PC Assist http://goo.gl/n1ONa9

 

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